This transcript has been auto generated
00;00;09;03 – 00;00;42;08
Hilary Bricken
Welcome. I’m your host, Hilary Bricken, and this is the Cannabis Law Now podcast where we regularly discuss issues related to the cannabis industry, including investment, day-to-day operational issues, and potential reform on the horizon that will impact all cannabis businesses and investors in the United States. Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Cannabis Law Now podcast. Today I have with me Chris Lindsey, who is the Director of State Advocacy and Public Policy for the American Trade Association of Cannabis and Hemp.
00;00;42;09 – 00;00;43;23
Hilary Bricken
Welcome to the podcast, Chris.
00;00;43;27 – 00;00;45;22
Chris Lindsey
Thanks. Thanks very much for having me here.
00;00;46;10 – 00;00;59;07
Hilary Bricken
Okay. Now, I’ve known you for a long time, probably ten years plus and definitely known of you. And to me in the beginning you’re quite legendary, but I’d like you, if you can, to tell our listeners about your background in the cannabis industry.
00;00;59;08 – 00;01;23;10
Chris Lindsey
Sure. Well, yeah, it’s it goes back a little ways, not as far back as some, I know, but I’ve been at this for probably, I guess I’d say, since 2006. It really starts for me where I was a trial lawyer just doing criminal law and had people started coming in my office saying, hey, you know, I got in trouble for possession, but I’m actually a medical marijuana patient.
00;01;23;10 – 00;01;48;14
Chris Lindsey
And I was like, really medical marijuana? That’s that’s actually a thing. And and so started just to kind of get a little familiar with it. And it actually wasn’t very long after that that I actually was diagnosed with Crohn’s disease and I ended up in the hospital. This is pretty early. Crohn’s is is is sort of better known now as a disease.
00;01;49;06 – 00;02;10;11
Chris Lindsey
This at this time it wasn’t as well known. And I was in and out of the hospital for months. Eventually, I just was straight up hospitalized and at one point they just ran out of things to try. So I got life flighted to another hospital in another state and eventually they came around and said, okay, we think we know the situation.
00;02;10;11 – 00;02;31;14
Chris Lindsey
You have Crohn’s, but the reason why we have been confused about this is you’re 36 years old and people who get this disease usually are in their teens or early twenties. And so it just never added up for us. But you mentioned and I did mention when I got admitted that, yeah, I was I’m a regular marijuana consumer.
00;02;31;23 – 00;02;52;08
Chris Lindsey
By the time I was at that point, I wasn’t holding back. And so I thought, you’re not going to like coming to arrest me or anything like that. I wanted him to know what I was up to in the regular consumer. And and the doctor said, We think you’ve actually probably had grown since then. You have just been managing your disease and not realizing it.
00;02;52;08 – 00;03;16;03
Chris Lindsey
And it was absolutely the case that I had backed off and decided I just didn’t want to consume as much. And that was when I started to get a lot more sick and so that was pretty eye opening, you know, for me, was like, well, there you have it. There really is such a thing as medical marijuana right up in your face.
00;03;16;03 – 00;03;41;10
Chris Lindsey
And so I got out of the hospital and literally had to start walking again because I had atrophy and all the stuff and I went back to that treatment team and said, okay, you know, I need I need to get my medical marijuana card. And none of them would sign my form from the state. And and they said, because we would get in trouble with the DEA.
00;03;41;10 – 00;04;05;03
Chris Lindsey
And it was pretty early for me and all this. I didn’t understand totally how all the dots connected, but it was clearly this was just bullshit because they knew they told me that I had been self-medicating. If, if anything, and yes, I should be participating, that all the things they said, but they wouldn’t sign the form. So that was the point where I said, okay, you know something?
00;04;05;03 – 00;04;29;06
Chris Lindsey
Some has to happen. So I started testifying up at the Capitol and meeting great people who also sort of shared this passion and this conviction. It look, this is a real thing here. We got to do this better because this is stupid the way it’s working right now. People, I had to literally drive for 4 hours in Montana just to find a doctor close enough that was willing to sign my form.
00;04;29;17 – 00;04;57;08
Chris Lindsey
And I categorically had the disease. And the disease was clearly listed in the state deal. It wasn’t like this was pushing any envelopes here. So that’s what set me off. Met the folks and eventually thought, You know what? After a couple of legislative sessions in Montana, we said we could probably take a swing at this as a business, like we could do this serious, you know, wouldn’t be a basement operation.
00;04;57;08 – 00;05;26;24
Chris Lindsey
You know, we pay our taxes and do all things, you know. So we got an accounting firm, we got bank accounts, we got set up Montana cannabis. It grew real fast. This was at the time when Obama was just campaigning to get into office the first time. And so he started throwing out their stuff. It became super important to us later, which was, yeah, I don’t think the federal government needs to put resources to enforcing this if they’re following state law.
00;05;26;25 – 00;05;55;26
Chris Lindsey
Well, that was that was the gospel to us. It was like, okay, if we can identify a way to work within the state system, then this should work. And we’re not going to be worried about federal law enforcement. And so that’s what we did and it took off. We got to meet great people. I learned so much, you know, but living in the greenhouse, you know, living the life and doing hard work.
00;05;55;26 – 00;06;22;07
Chris Lindsey
And after about a year, I was just like it took a real toll on me physically because I was still dealing with Crohn’s and all the rest. And so it just made more sense for me to say I’m just going to go back and be a lawyer and and so moved from the business to practicing law. I was sort of the first marijuana lawyer in Montana that wasn’t just doing criminal law, and there were plenty good lawyers doing that.
00;06;22;07 – 00;06;42;23
Chris Lindsey
But I was more of the Nugent operation. Hey, this is medical marijuana. And I want to represent people who get sort of abused by the law or whatnot. So working with businesses and working with the patients and, you know, good times, I was always a little worried about the phone ringing, I’ll tell you that, because it was dicey, like law enforcement was fully in.
00;06;42;23 – 00;07;01;15
Chris Lindsey
Like they just not like today. All you kids today, you know, you don’t know where it was. Wrath is totally you’d have, you know, random law enforcement just and still happens by the way in places like Michigan, where just you just all of a sudden people get busted. At any rate, year and a half goes by. Suddenly the DEA shows up in state.
00;07;01;18 – 00;07;27;17
Chris Lindsey
They raid 28 businesses in about two and a half hours and including the one that I had helped set up Montana cannabis. So at that point, it’s a big question about, well, you know, lots and lots of people get arrested. Businesses, of course, shut down overnight. The whole thing just kind of goes a whole industry in the state went into deep freeze or at least underground.
00;07;28;00 – 00;07;54;00
Chris Lindsey
And I ended up getting charged as a coconspirator because under the federal system, you know, this obviously, and the federal system, once you are participating in something they consider a criminal enterprise, you’re in it like you’re part of it. And so basically you have to jump through many hoops that are hard to jump through in order to really just say, I don’t have to do anything to do with anymore.
00;07;54;00 – 00;08;17;02
Chris Lindsey
And and it was a weird situation because I actually still represented that company. Like I was fully on board with what they did. It’s not like I, it’s not like we did a conspiracy to rob a bank. And a certain point I bailed on that conspiracy. It was more like no, it was a full business endeavor. And yeah, we made massive amounts of marijuana and sure, I sold it.
00;08;17;02 – 00;08;37;20
Chris Lindsey
I drove it around the state and gave it to people repeatedly. None of that was in question and I didn’t feel bad about any of that stuff. And so I was even though I wasn’t in the business anymore, I was still very much considered part of the gang. And so I got charged with a ridiculous number of charges.
00;08;37;20 – 00;09;14;03
Chris Lindsey
It was silly. It was like seven charges, but they have it. The federal system, you have mandatory minimums and just adding up the mandatory minimum years. It came to like over 400 years in federal prison. Mandatory minimum right in this is is like murdering babies like this is it’s the worst thing you can imagine. This is literally medical marijuana business operating under state law out in the open.
00;09;14;03 – 00;09;35;10
Chris Lindsey
We literally had state law enforcement visit our place in order to train lawn force like they weren’t there to give us. We trained the drug task force. Well, we didn’t train. They came to our place as part of their training and we’d walk them around some stuff. Some of those dudes got deputized by the DEA or in on the raids.
00;09;35;10 – 00;10;12;06
Chris Lindsey
It was like it all changed course. Then there’s the whole trial and everything else, and through absolute blind luck, God’s mercy, wherever you are on the spectrum, the I got some favors because of I and believe me there I got more of the story. I can I can leave it there just to say once I got on the other side of that, there was no path for me but advocacy it was this system is so messed up that I could do what I did for the reasons that we did and the help that I know we gave to people.
00;10;12;20 – 00;10;37;03
Chris Lindsey
And yet being portrayed as this like literally drug kingpin kind of situation where we couldn’t use the word medical in the trial, it just we just all that stuff was so nonsensical to me that that was the only path that I could see. And so I started working for Marijuana Policy Project. That’s how I got it. And I’m sorry you asked a real simple question.
00;10;37;03 – 00;10;38;27
Chris Lindsey
That was I was a story.
00;10;39;07 – 00;11;03;26
Hilary Bricken
You nailed the answer, because this is why among us, early movers, you were legendary because you’re maybe the only attorney who was not engaged in nefarious conduct, because some lawyers are right in aiding and abetting real cartel activity, etc.. You were trying to follow Montana State laws and you got dinged by the feds. And this is like every lawyer’s nightmare that was practicing in the space and assisting these businesses.
00;11;03;26 – 00;11;22;20
Hilary Bricken
And, you know, frankly, we’re not out of the woods yet with the current status of federal law, even though they appear to be inactive, they are not. And when the Eye of Sauron turns, it turns really hard. And I remember thinking at the time, Montana is so crazy to me politically because it’s not like the state and the locals probably didn’t help the DEA and the feds.
00;11;22;20 – 00;11;40;24
Hilary Bricken
There’s kind of a partnership there. And I was perceived Montana as more libertarian. So to see something like that occur, it kind of shocks the conscience a little bit. And I was on the West Coast. Obviously, we have a U.S. attorney generals as well. And we had two that were kind of warring with each other, depending on what side of the mountains they were on and the state of Washington.
00;11;40;24 – 00;11;59;06
Hilary Bricken
And I remember hearing of your story, and I just thought that is the ultimate. And yet you have to tell the tale. And now you’re on the advocacy side, which is great, because what I really want to get into is what eventually led you into the American Trade Association of Cannabis and Hemp, because a lot of these cannabis trade organizations have risen and fallen.
00;11;59;06 – 00;12;13;12
Hilary Bricken
It’s very hard to get consensus of one uniform reasonable voice in cannabis. There’s a lot of inside baseball and kind of attacking each other and different initiatives, and it’s a little fractured. So what led you to and I’m going to say, but you can correct me in a tack attach which one is it?
00;12;13;18 – 00;12;15;15
Chris Lindsey
We go with attach attach.
00;12;15;15 – 00;12;15;25
Hilary Bricken
Okay.
00;12;16;00 – 00;12;47;13
Chris Lindsey
Some in the in the synthetic THC industry will call us attack and I’m a yes. So we’ll get to that in a minute. So I will tell you, how did I get sort of from, you know, from who I don’t you know, I’m on probation and kind of my my advocacy is in terms of a lawyer that’s, you know, had had to wish all my clients well and they had to find other representation.
00;12;47;13 – 00;13;17;00
Chris Lindsey
I started working for MPP. So there’s the state by state by state and I worked in many. I had the very, very good fortune of working for Karen O’Keefe, who’s just the we she is the unsung hero, I think, of advocacy that has trained so many people. And everything I learned, basically, I learned from her. So got to work for her for almost ten years and kind of got me into shape.
00;13;17;00 – 00;13;51;04
Chris Lindsey
I actually thought I was doing okay before or for every day. I heard that I wasn’t. But anyway, so about and in those early days, the funds that kept the organization coming were coming from largely from philanthropy dollars. And these were often driven by individuals who sort of saw that the criminal justice system in the United States has got big problems and there’s no better single example of this in terms of overall harm than the war on drugs.
00;13;51;12 – 00;14;26;19
Chris Lindsey
There is no single better example within the war on drugs than marijuana. And so if we can undermine that or end it or legalize or whatever we can do to end this kind of abuse of the criminal justice system by by using marijuana to sort of intrude in so far into people’s lives, that’s a good thing. And so those sorts of broad efforts were what we’d get checks written to Marijuana Policy Project and others, Drug Policy Alliance and others that were kind of run around the time.
00;14;26;19 – 00;14;51;24
Chris Lindsey
Well, that’s all well and good until you get to about the mid-teens. So around 2016, 2017 and probably a little bit earlier than that, it’s like now you’re starting to see like true dollars coming in from these state programs that are now starting to stand up as a result of the changes in laws that these organizations are seeing.
00;14;51;24 – 00;15;17;29
Chris Lindsey
And if you’re writing the checks from the philanthropists, you’re saying, well, I’m reading headlines about billions of dollars now being brought in. Maybe you should go talk to some of those people if you need money. And so that was a real serious problem because it meant that now you had to frankly start thinking about what does it mean for us to go raise money from businesses?
00;15;17;29 – 00;15;46;25
Chris Lindsey
Because that’s different now. They have an agenda. Now they might want to participate in what you’re talking about. And so we’re no longer just sort of pie in the sky. This needs to end because of the things we’re now on agendas, and that’s a different world. And so the reality is, is that you don’t do advocacy in this space if you don’t have companies that you work with that believe in what you do, that transition.
00;15;46;28 – 00;16;12;02
Chris Lindsey
And so I started working for one called U.S. Cannabis Council, helped launch it and did the GR the government relations parts so met with members of Congress and we did all kinds of stuff and you know and had goals and all the things that you do when you’re doing the lobbying work. So suddenly it’s just kind of DC stuff and did that for a while, which is super exciting, but found that there is.
00;16;12;06 – 00;16;39;13
Chris Lindsey
My current employer is really focused on a couple of key issues that I became very interested in. And so it made a lot of sense for me just really to try to make a transition. And it’s about two things. One is how do we deal with it properly in a smart way, in a sensible way? The emergence of hemp and toxicants into this whole mix.
00;16;39;13 – 00;17;14;04
Chris Lindsey
It was complicated enough. Now here comes this right. And I’ve always been pro-legalization. That hasn’t changed. But the landscape is way more complicated now. And and the other thing is the scheduling or rescheduling. And in trying to see that through and attach is really been very effective in both of those areas. And so I’m super excited to be kind of in, in a place where I can do the advocacy and have the luxury of being able to do it in areas that I feel real passionate about.
00;17;14;16 – 00;17;30;23
Hilary Bricken
And so, you know, let’s dove into those two things because those are the two big ticket items for 2025 and beyond. I mean, let’s let’s be honest what is charge is current position on cannabis rescheduling legalization something in between?
00;17;31;02 – 00;17;56;01
Chris Lindsey
You can be sure that we’re all in on the scheduling. I mean that’s that’s the only long term solution is treat it like concept really big picture conceptually like alcohol treated like tobacco probably don’t really want to be treated like tobacco. I’m just saying that there is we need to have a system that is cannabis smoke. It’s designed for this substance.
00;17;56;01 – 00;18;26;09
Chris Lindsey
It’s got enough little gotchas and, you know, little twists and turns and how it has to be dealt with. You probably have to have something designed for it. Now that’s not been on the menu in any practical way. At the federal level, there are plenty of proposals. Proposals are as easy as writing a check in D.C. So the fact that there are a lot of different proposals for legalization means that, hey, money changed hands and I don’t want to be so crude.
00;18;26;18 – 00;19;00;27
Chris Lindsey
It’s obviously a lot more than that. But moving this issue along through the whole song that we got in Schoolhouse Rock, we’re very much on the front end of that song in in terms of how we move towards legalization through Congress. So suffice it to say that while we are very supportive of this scheduling, getting to a sort of legalization framework where you would schedule and have a regulatory system around that, we are very far.
00;19;01;00 – 00;19;26;10
Chris Lindsey
What the Biden administration did was introduce this idea of rescheduling. And so that’s important. And it would do some very helpful things for people, especially those that are in business. But again, that’s where a lot of this stuff happens. They would get some huge benefits. And the biggest one is that they would really just be treated like other businesses in the United States rather than criminal enterprises.
00;19;26;10 – 00;19;47;08
Chris Lindsey
So that’s kind of a big deal. But that’s about the only gimmick you get by moving from 1 to 3. So I’m still very supportive of that and work towards that. But we don’t really have legalization until we get to scheduling, moving it completely out of the Controlled Substances Act. And unfortunately, that’s going to be a way.
00;19;47;14 – 00;20;07;28
Hilary Bricken
Yeah, that is also my understanding and I’m not even doing anything on the Hill. Right. But this is why we have you on today, because I want to talk about what you’re hearing on the Hill and what you’re advocating for relative to intoxicating hemp. Because what I am seeing in the marketplace is that these state licensed cannabis companies are kind of caving and saying, well, if you can’t beat them, join them.
00;20;08;03 – 00;20;18;25
Hilary Bricken
Let’s start an intoxicating hemp line. And then others that are dying on the hill and saying never and advocating for bans. So what are you seeing out there on that this year in 2025?
00;20;18;26 – 00;20;43;04
Chris Lindsey
Right. Well, I think that there is a bit of a narrative that has developed and gotten a little the flames have been fanned around this idea that it’s marijuana versus him. And I think that that’s definitely a misnomer. I think that where we’re at now is we have a broad range of regulatory frameworks and some of them are effective and others are less so.
00;20;43;04 – 00;21;12;07
Chris Lindsey
Some of them are way over regulated and some virtually don’t have any regulations at all. We have to really approach these things with a health and safety framework. That’s the only difference that regulated businesses can really go to Congress with or to state lawmakers with because nobody’s really having trouble getting marijuana these days. Right. You know, you don’t have people out in the street saying, I demand access.
00;21;12;11 – 00;21;38;20
Chris Lindsey
Everybody’s got it. It’s a matter of where you’re making your choices. Right. And if you’re from government, there’s really only two things you probably care about. One is, are we getting any revenue for any of this? And two is, are these products reasonably safe? And to me, it’s that safety component that is really the value add, if you will, of our entire endeavor to say that, oh, we’re better off with the regulatory system and this and that.
00;21;39;01 – 00;22;00;09
Chris Lindsey
It’s really to say that our products are better, right? That you know, that we hit certain marks that you’re not going to be consuming bad things with your product. And so that’s kind of where we focus that they’re going to be. There’s Tennessee, right? They have a hemp program. We’re going to call it hemp in Tennessee. Well, no, it’s marijuana.
00;22;00;14 – 00;22;27;00
Chris Lindsey
We’re going to call it medical cannabis in a medical cannabis only state. You know, we’re going to call it adult use in Illinois, where they and so but they all have frameworks that bear very similar policies for very similar reasons. And I think that we need to take a step back because to your point, there are a lot of those marijuana companies right now that are having to make strategic choices.
00;22;27;10 – 00;22;49;09
Chris Lindsey
Am I supposed to tell them that? Oh, no, wait a minute. You have to keep paying to 80 and you have to keep hitting a bar so high that you may or may not make it this next year just because you did everything the state asked you to do in the marijuana program and definitely don’t avail yourself of the new programs that are developing around the country around these.
00;22;49;09 – 00;23;14;27
Chris Lindsey
That’s not my place to say what I care about, is it? We don’t undermine what progress has been made. Right. And let me just explain what I mean by that. So Montana was bumping along with a medical marijuana program and it was popular. You would ask your Joe on the street what they think about medical marijuana, and they’d probably say, you know what, I think it’s a good idea.
00;23;14;27 – 00;23;39;10
Chris Lindsey
If it helps people. And if you’re an industry selling marijuana for a living, that’s exactly where you want to be. But the problem is that in a poorly regulated environment, you have a situation where you become judged by your worst actors and suddenly you’re driving into school in Billings, Montana, passing a billboard that talks about the cheapest ounce you can buy in the state.
00;23;39;14 – 00;24;04;09
Chris Lindsey
Right. And you’re hearing from law enforcement that’s saying, oh, my God, now there’s cartels here and we’re an export state. People are shipping Montana bud to Idaho. Now, that’s where we’re seeing that. That’s how the headlines changed. And it was not long after that, before law enforcement started to show up. And that’s the concern that I have. And so we have regulatory programs for marijuana.
00;24;04;10 – 00;24;38;08
Chris Lindsey
There over over regulated. So what happens when you ask lawmakers to legalize something that they have been trained to hate? Right. They’re going to overegged. So then here comes hemp, which is under-regulated. And part of me is like, go for it, you know? I mean, who am I to all of a sudden put up roadblocks? But the fact of the matter is that in over a dozen states, there have been legal challenges to states trying to put regulatory systems in place like the hemp.
00;24;38;08 – 00;24;59;03
Chris Lindsey
Folks would say, well, we don’t want to do X or Y or Z, and they would just go into federal court and say, You can’t touch me. I’m the gingerbread man. You’re you are preempted by federal law. It shows up in farm bill. You can’t tell me I can’t sell this. And in oh, and by the way, I do want to be regulated and regulated.
00;24;59;03 – 00;25;30;13
Chris Lindsey
I mean, 21 or older. And you know, let’s start with that. And and it’s like, look, from my perspective, that’s mad because it’s just a matter of time before that pendulum swing right back and you think the public won’t figure out what’s been going on? Like, really, you’re just going to continue to crank out massive amounts of high potency drugs in candy form and ship them across state lines to kids and other states.
00;25;30;13 – 00;26;00;05
Chris Lindsey
And that’s not going to be a problem for anybody. And so my sort of jumping off point in all of this is that you have to have some kind of regulatory system or we’re screwed, like the federal government has not changed its laws at all and they start seeing kids on a massive scale getting addicted or going to the hospital or whatever the horrible things are that haters are going to seize upon.
00;26;00;20 – 00;26;21;03
Chris Lindsey
And you think there’s any protection for any of these companies? There’s no reason why the government can’t flip that switch and just start busting again and look. And if it gets to that point, we’ve lost I mean, forget about who goes to jail. It’s it’s the fact that we will have lost the public and suddenly this is all just a sham.
00;26;21;10 – 00;26;43;08
Chris Lindsey
And why did we ever do any of this in the first place? And suddenly all the work to get natural marijuana products out there and licensed and at least available is undermined by people synthesize selling designer THC in their basement. Like, I’m not going to lose on that. That’s ridiculous. I’m not losing on that bullshit. So anyway.
00;26;44;20 – 00;27;02;27
Hilary Bricken
In your opinion then, do you think that Congress is going to address this kind of infamous, quote unquote, loophole in the farm bill that permits for these intoxicating cannabinoids? We know that they have through the end of the year on this version of the farm bill hailing from 2018, do you think they’re going to close it, slash address it?
00;27;02;27 – 00;27;04;10
Hilary Bricken
How where do you think they really are?
00;27;04;19 – 00;27;40;26
Chris Lindsey
They definitely want to close it. Here’s my prediction. Understand that all this happened in the context of the farm bill, and I understand who’s involved in passing things like the farm bill. These are members of Congress who are agriculture in their audience. They’re not criminal rights crusaders. They’re not civil rights warriors. Some of them may want to legalize, but the agriculture Act is not the place for it, and they very much feel like they were lied to in 2018 about what was going to happen.
00;27;41;12 – 00;28;07;17
Chris Lindsey
You go back into the record and it was over and over and over again. This was rope, not dope. And nobody is talking about rope today. Nobody everybody is talking about how much money they’ve made and how much money they’re not to make. If this loophole closes. And to a member of Congress, that’s like you just seal the deal.
00;28;07;17 – 00;28;30;07
Chris Lindsey
They are so uninterested in keeping people who have taken advantage of the law they thought they were passing and just turned it into exactly what they were trying to avoid. That’s offensive to those members. And so they have zero interest in this argument that, hey, people love it, we should be able to continue to sell it. Why can’t you just keep us?
00;28;30;07 – 00;29;02;12
Chris Lindsey
Keep it open? Right. So believe me, members of Congress want to see that loophole or whatever you want to call it. The question is about regular order, which is how two bills move through Congress. And we can see that even in a no brainer, like the farm bill, which has to pass every five years because farming, I mean, trillion dollar farming, not the little teeny weeny corner of a corner called hemp.
00;29;02;23 – 00;29;26;00
Chris Lindsey
Right. That can’t move. That’s we’re dealing with issues way beyond our ability to control. So we’re in the farm bill, but we were in the farm bill, I guess because there’s going to be a new farm bill. I don’t see any of the leadership changing their opinions. I think Republicans understand now at the federal level what’s been going on.
00;29;26;14 – 00;29;55;25
Chris Lindsey
So I do think that members are intent in closing that. But I want to say this, this is very important. I also think that there is a pathway to do what really should have happened at the outset, which is to create that system that accounts for these products. And it can, if nothing else, if nothing else, what it should do is allow states the freedom to do all of the things they need to do.
00;29;55;25 – 00;30;24;29
Chris Lindsey
Right. Because, again, we run into problems. Banks still have problems underwriting companies. There are still questions about tax liability. We’re still dealing with a redheaded stepchild. Problem with no clear regulatory authority and who uncertainty. Right so we need that addressed to this FDA these products all along have technically been illegal because they don’t meet standards for health and safety.
00;30;25;16 – 00;30;54;07
Chris Lindsey
Well, come on. Let’s then let’s address that. And look, if we’re dealing with an upsurge in interest because we got a whole bunch of new energy and new companies in that direction, then come on, this is the time. Let’s go to DC with the right solution. Stop Jerry rigging the farm bill. I can’t imagine. And a whole industry that has to get reauthorized every five years, which is what would have to happen to get that come up with a better solution.
00;30;54;18 – 00;31;08;06
Chris Lindsey
That’s where we should be. And look, we’re already in the world where this stuff is moving around. We don’t have to ask permission. We’re asking for a better approach to what’s happening already.
00;31;08;29 – 00;31;32;19
Hilary Bricken
Final question for you. While I have you, given that part of your title is state advocacy, what do you think the states are going to do about this this year? Because it seems like we’re heading towards just this spectrum of splits on what can be done. California bans any amount of intoxicating having consumer products. And then you’ve got Minnesota total contrast that embraced it is quasi regulating it.
00;31;32;19 – 00;31;35;21
Hilary Bricken
And you can get THC beverages with hemp at a bar.
00;31;35;28 – 00;32;01;01
Chris Lindsey
Yeah, there’s going to be a wide range of possible frameworks and I think that there are good versions of all of these. I think there are pitfalls in these. We just need to be able to identify and work with policymakers to say, here’s the thing you need to be aware of. So I do think that no matter what happens at the federal level, this is always going to come down to what are states going to do.
00;32;01;01 – 00;32;29;22
Chris Lindsey
And the problem that we were addressing as an organization was the very real sort of existential threat of going into federal court and claiming states don’t have you don’t have any authority over these products because if you think about where that go, that destroys the state regulated system completely because who in their right mind would run a state licensed marijuana company?
00;32;30;01 – 00;32;53;11
Chris Lindsey
If you can call yourself hemp and pay no taxes and have no regulation. Right. And so that was a real serious problem. And so now that it’s sort of clear, the Fourth Circuit recently, sort of in my estimation, was kind of the final nail in the coffin of this issue that states very clearly are not preempted. They have the authority to regulate these products.
00;32;53;11 – 00;33;27;18
Chris Lindsey
So issue is sort of been resolved in a lot of ways to me. Congress can continue to do Congress. We’re going to be focused now on the states. So I have been involved myself supporting our members in Arizona, Missouri, Illinois, Florida, Ohio and in New Jersey. We’re expanding as an organization now to bring in more states into the conversation because we’re not here trying to say the hemp guys are going to lose, the marijuana guys are going to win.
00;33;28;03 – 00;33;53;20
Chris Lindsey
We’re here to say, look at the system that you have. How do we make that the best system that we can make it? Because if we have bad actors running away with this stuff, it undermines everything that we’ve been working towards and I think people that are in the industry understand that we have to be able to manage what we’ve got, and that’s what I aim to do.
00;33;53;20 – 00;33;55;23
Chris Lindsey
And I know that’s what attaches to.
00;33;56;11 – 00;34;13;25
Hilary Bricken
All right, well, thanks for the input. I hope these seeds can find harmonious regulatory structures that don’t embrace prohibition. We all know it doesn’t work anyway. And I want to thank you, Chris, for coming on to the Cannabis Law Now podcast and I wish you all the best at ATACH and its governmental relations effort.
00;34;13;25 – 00;34;17;26
Chris Lindsey
Awesome. Well, thanks so much for having me on. And letting me go on about all this.
00;34;19;00 – 00;34;33;04
Hilary Bricken
And that concludes today’s episode of the Cannabis Law Now podcast. Until next time, stay alert, stay alive.
In this episode, we dive into the interesting journey of Chris Lindsey, a former Montana-licensed attorney who experienced firsthand the federal government’s crackdown on cannabis. After being charged for advising, assisting, and abetting cannabis clients in Montana, he now serves as the Director of State Advocacy and Public Policy at the American Trade Association of Cannabis and Hemp (ATACH). Read More
